Prof Bart Ehrman in Conversation:
Jay Smith and Shabir Ally:
[ or the not 'so fine art' of going in circles...]
On the day when We shall gather the righteous unto the Beneficent, a goodly company. (85) And drive the guilty unto Hell, a weary herd, (86) They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord. (87) And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. (88) Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing (89) Whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins, (90) That ye ascribe unto the Beneficent a son, (91) When it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should choose a son. (92) There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (93) Verily He knoweth them and numbereth them with (right) numbering. (94) And each one of them will come unto Him on the Day of Resurrection, alone. (95) Lo! those who believe and do good works, the Beneficent will appoint for them love. (96) And We make (this Scripture) easy in thy tongue, (O Muhammad) only that thou mayst bear good tidings therewith unto those who ward off (evil), and warn therewith the froward folk. (97) And how many a generation before them have We destroyed! Canst thou (Muhammad) see a single man of them, or hear from them the slightest sound? (98)
Surah Maryam , 19 : 85- 98
Showing posts with label Trinity..... Show all posts
Showing posts with label Trinity..... Show all posts
Friday, January 7, 2011
Saturday, November 27, 2010
Still on Trinity: " Going in Circles"
"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful"
"Say: He is Allah, the One!
Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
He begetteth not nor was begotten.
And there is none comparable unto Him."
Surah Al ikhlas, 112 : 1-4
Translation from The Noble Qur'an by Marmaduke Pickthal
Friday, November 26, 2010
YUSUF ESTES on TRINITY
The role of Paul of Tarsus in shaping this belief and the belief in Trinity
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The notion of Jesus as son of God is something that was established under the influence of Paul of Tarsus (originally named Saul), who had been an enemy of Jesus, but later changed course and joined the disciples after the departure of Jesus.
Later, however, he initiated a number of changes into early Christian teachings, in contradiction, for instance, to disciples like Barnabas, who believed in the Oneness of God and who had actually lived and met with Jesus.
Paul is considered by a number of Christian scholars to be the father of Christianity due to his additions of the following ideas:
that Jesus is the son of God,
the concept of Atonement,
the renunciation of the Law of the Torah.
Paul did these things in hopes of winning over the Gentiles (non-Jewish people). His letters are another of the primary sources of information on Jesus according to the Christian tradition.
The original followers of Prophet Jesus opposed these blatant misrepresentations of the message of Jesus. They struggled to reject the notion of the Divinity of Jesus for close to 200 years.
One person who was an original follower of Jesus was Barnabas. He was a Jew born in Cyrus and a successful preacher of the teachings of Jesus. Because of his closeness to Jesus, he was an important member of the small group of disciples in Jerusalem who had had gathered together following the disappearance of Jesus.
The question of Jesus's nature, origin and relationship with God was not raised amongst Barnabas and the small group of disciples. Jesus was considered a man miraculously endowed by God. Nothing in the words of Jesus or the events in his life led them to modify this view.
The Gospel of Barnabas was accepted as a Canonical Gospel in the Churches of Alexandria till 325 CE Iranaeus (130-200) wrote in support of pure monotheism and opposed Paul for injecting into Christianity doctrines of the pagan Roman religion and Platonic philosophy. He quoted extensively from the Gospel of Barnabas in support of his views. This indicates that the Gospel of Barnabas was in circulation in the first and second centuries of Christianity.
In 325 (CE), a council of Christian leaders met at Nicaea and made Paul's beliefs officially part of Christian doctrine. It also ordered that all original Gospels in Hebrew script which contradicted Paul's beliefs should be destroyed. An edict was issued that anyone in possession of these Gospels would be put to death.
The Gospel of Barnabas has miraculously survived though.The original copy, well kept under secrecy in the Vatican library under lock and key
................................
From The Noble Qur'an,
as translated by Marmaduke Pickthal
"Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son."
The Noble Qur'an
"The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers (the like of whom) had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat (earthly) food. See how We make the revelations clear for them, and see how they are turned away! (75) Say: Serve ye in place of Allah that which possesseth for you neither hurt nor use? Allah it is Who is the Hearer, the Knower. (76) Say: O People of the Scripture! Stress not in your religion other than the truth, and follow not the vain desires of folk who erred of old and led many astray, and erred from a plain road. (77) Those of the Children of Israel who went astray were cursed by the tongue of David, and of Jesus, son of Mary. That was because they rebelled and used to transgress. (78) They restrained not one another from the wickedness they did. Verily evil was that they used to do! (79)"
Al Maida , 'The Table Spread', 5 : 75-79
"On the day when We shall gather the righteous unto the Beneficent, a goodly company. (85) And drive the guilty unto Hell, a weary herd, (86) They will have no power of intercession, save him who hath made a covenant with his Lord. (87) And they say: The Beneficent hath taken unto Himself a son. (88) Assuredly ye utter a disastrous thing (89) Whereby almost the heavens are torn, and the earth is split asunder and the mountains fall in ruins, (90) That ye ascribe unto the Beneficent a son, (91) When it is not meet for (the Majesty of) the Beneficent that He should choose a son. (92) There is none in the heavens and the earth but cometh unto the Beneficent as a slave. (93)"
Surah Maryam, 19 ; 86-93
Wednesday, May 14, 2008
Trinity; Pearls and Gem from Surah An Nisa [ Letter 4 Verse 171 ]
Friends ,
It is interesting that the concept of 'Three in one and One in three' came some approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus [pbuh].Expounded by Saul of Tarsus ,a half Hebrew half Roman, who initially was very much against the very teaching of Jesus . He had a name change after his conversion to paul, and now known Paul the Apostle
Paul 'hijacked' Jesus's teaching and introduced the concept of TRINITY ,[which to this day found the Christians in knots trying to defend] ,to court the Romans , the one and only Superpower of that era ,just like the Americans of present day era .
Some 100 years after Jesus'demise,James was leading the 'Church of Jerusalem'and was teaching very much of Jesus'message: The Unity of God,similar message revealed from Prophet Abraham, through to Isaac, Yaacub, Mosses, and penultimately Jesus. However , Paul was a man in a hurry and had other design. When the Church of Jerusalem became fragmented due to Byzantine pressure,Paul introduced the nebulous concept of 'TRINITY', which somehow find support 250 years alter from Emperor Constantin....the Greek mythology and belief were more familiar with many 'godheads' and three seemed an easy compromise!
Emperor Constantin the Great ,then headquartered in Constantinople ,just across the Bhosphorus near present day Istanbul, got excited and adopt the new teaching as the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire .In the art of Nation building ,it is practical that one has a credo and the Roman emperor ,having already lost one half of his empire to the 'newly emerging nations in the west' adopted Christianity as the new rallying call to unify under one banner.
The Romans who inherit their 'religion' from the Greeks , used to have many godheads and "three" seemed quite a practical number at that time.Constantin himself , privately remained a pagan up to his last breath .Allah was cognizance of this historical perspective and in Ayat 171 of Surah An Nisa ,had this to say ,
"O People of the Scripture ! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary and a spirit from Him .So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not " Three--Cease !{it is } better for you !--Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son..His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as Defender ." [171]
That remains the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity to this day and until Doomsday .
Of course there is this new movement amongst 'modernist' Islamic thinkers, liberal and so-called progressive Islamists, that at the highest level ' all religions are the same .These shameless, spineless apologists are doing to Islam what St Paul did to Christianity some 14 centuries ago ."Depa nak jual quran for a fistful of American dollars" !
Our universe contain a thousand billions of galaxies,a billion billion stars. The distance from one extreme edge of 'light' to the other extreme edge of 'light'[ie the 'diameter' of the universe] is a billion billion light years. One light year is 4 kilometres with 15 zeros behind.Times that with another 18 zeros and you get 4 kilometres with 35 zeros: That is the diameter of our universe. And this is an expanding universe at 300,000 kilometres per second. Tomorrow our universe would have expanded by another 240,000,000,000 kilometres!
But If one were to put this universe on Allah's Arash[The Tremendous Throne], it would be impossible to find the universe,..like searching for a pin in a haystack!
That is the immensity of the Lord of the universe, our Maker, that we pray and pin our hope to. How can we mere mortals on this tiny,tiny planet called earth, in a minute corner in space within this super vast universe ever ascribe partners to Him!
'Far is it removed from His transcendent Majesty that He should have a son' !
Subhanallah, Alhamdullillah, Allahuakbar!
Dr Nik Howk
It is interesting that the concept of 'Three in one and One in three' came some approximately 50 years after the death of Jesus [pbuh].Expounded by Saul of Tarsus ,a half Hebrew half Roman, who initially was very much against the very teaching of Jesus . He had a name change after his conversion to paul, and now known Paul the Apostle
Paul 'hijacked' Jesus's teaching and introduced the concept of TRINITY ,[which to this day found the Christians in knots trying to defend] ,to court the Romans , the one and only Superpower of that era ,just like the Americans of present day era .
Some 100 years after Jesus'demise,James was leading the 'Church of Jerusalem'and was teaching very much of Jesus'message: The Unity of God,similar message revealed from Prophet Abraham, through to Isaac, Yaacub, Mosses, and penultimately Jesus. However , Paul was a man in a hurry and had other design. When the Church of Jerusalem became fragmented due to Byzantine pressure,Paul introduced the nebulous concept of 'TRINITY', which somehow find support 250 years alter from Emperor Constantin....the Greek mythology and belief were more familiar with many 'godheads' and three seemed an easy compromise!
Emperor Constantin the Great ,then headquartered in Constantinople ,just across the Bhosphorus near present day Istanbul, got excited and adopt the new teaching as the official religion of the Eastern Roman Empire .In the art of Nation building ,it is practical that one has a credo and the Roman emperor ,having already lost one half of his empire to the 'newly emerging nations in the west' adopted Christianity as the new rallying call to unify under one banner.
The Romans who inherit their 'religion' from the Greeks , used to have many godheads and "three" seemed quite a practical number at that time.Constantin himself , privately remained a pagan up to his last breath .Allah was cognizance of this historical perspective and in Ayat 171 of Surah An Nisa ,had this to say ,
"O People of the Scripture ! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah , Jesus son of Mary , was only a messenger of Allah , and His word which He conveyed unto Mary and a spirit from Him .So believe in Allah and His messengers , and say not " Three--Cease !{it is } better for you !--Allah is only one God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son..His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth . And Allah is sufficient as Defender ." [171]
That remains the fundamental difference between Islam and Christianity to this day and until Doomsday .
Of course there is this new movement amongst 'modernist' Islamic thinkers, liberal and so-called progressive Islamists, that at the highest level ' all religions are the same .These shameless, spineless apologists are doing to Islam what St Paul did to Christianity some 14 centuries ago ."Depa nak jual quran for a fistful of American dollars" !
Our universe contain a thousand billions of galaxies,a billion billion stars. The distance from one extreme edge of 'light' to the other extreme edge of 'light'[ie the 'diameter' of the universe] is a billion billion light years. One light year is 4 kilometres with 15 zeros behind.Times that with another 18 zeros and you get 4 kilometres with 35 zeros: That is the diameter of our universe. And this is an expanding universe at 300,000 kilometres per second. Tomorrow our universe would have expanded by another 240,000,000,000 kilometres!
But If one were to put this universe on Allah's Arash[The Tremendous Throne], it would be impossible to find the universe,..like searching for a pin in a haystack!
That is the immensity of the Lord of the universe, our Maker, that we pray and pin our hope to. How can we mere mortals on this tiny,tiny planet called earth, in a minute corner in space within this super vast universe ever ascribe partners to Him!
'Far is it removed from His transcendent Majesty that He should have a son' !
Subhanallah, Alhamdullillah, Allahuakbar!
Dr Nik Howk
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