of oranges and apples.........a conversation in cyberspace

From: Dato  sri  jg

Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:50 PM
To: Nik Isahak Abdullah
Subject: Who to vote for?


doc nik,

At a Zakir Naik event, a Malay woman asked the preacher,

"ln the election there are two candidates - a Muslim who is incompetent and corrupt, and a non-Muslim who is competent and honest. Which one should l vote for?"

Naik replied, "Of course, you must vote for the Muslim. If he is corrupt he will answer to God."

I saw this remarkable exchange on YouTube. 

What do you think? 

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On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, 19:06 Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah, <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

i will vote for tdm, dato.....anytime.

rather than that 'carbuncle'  that nearly bankrupt the nation.

😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃😃
anytime.

.......................................................... 

From:  dato sri jg
Sent: Tuesday, July 24,

You have very nicely evaded the question. 

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On 24 Jul 2018 22:49, "Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah" <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

😄😄😄😄😄
dr zakir is not always right, dato

but he is a good man

years back we used to lose every theological debates with the trinitarians..i can still remember that.

we got hammered left right and centre.... 
people were beginning to say islam is a 'rubbish religion, founded by a paedophile, whose billions of adherents found nothing better to do than to go round a black box.
 round and round and round!
that seemed to be their life ambition and total preoccupation.
even your good friend syedharijumaatapakahnamadiadah also thought so!.

then came along ahmad deedat of south africa who knew the injeel  in all it's variations, old and new,and the taurat, like he knew  the back of his palms.

that was well before utubes and  misshapps and facebook!
we started winning debates

zakir naik is 5 times better.
he knows the qur'an, the bibles and all its variation
he knows bhagavid gita, and all other hindu scriptures better than the hindus 

oftentimes i ask myself why only we muslims have to be  so apologetic when we are  winning in the intellectual discourse...

is not ugama an intellectual discourse?  a search for truth...
and we are all looking for truth, not heresays from ulama, scholars, priests or monks...

just because a few ignorant  and biased hindraf people  are making  'animal' noise out there, we have to apologise and incarceraste the 'postman' !

dr zakir naik, despite his carbuncle , warts , and all...is allah's gift to the ummah
there may not be another zakir naik for decades!!!!

just my humble opinion dato... 



..............................................................

From: dato sri jg
Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2018 11:17 PM
To: Nik Isahak Abdullah

I have watched his videos. You are right - he does know his scriptures well, and can quote it in accurate detail. It attests to an understanding of the text, and an unusually good memory.

However, it is well to bear in mind that memory is only the capacity to retrieve information. It does not necessarily imply logic or contemporary good sense. 

I have listened to his answers to questions posed by his many admirers. The less l comment on his values and good sense (as l perceive them) the better. 

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On Thu, 26 Jul 2018, 23:06 Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah, <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

one has to be generous dato.

memory, information and knowledge are cheap.
wisdom is priceless! 

he has superb photographic memory.
almost inhuman in quality and quantity. his wisdom is superb.

     he lives simply in a 2 bedroom flat in india.

the 'kufur west' and all the  'kufur east 'would like to incarcerate dzn because he can out debate them all  in their 'ugama'.

they have no rational answers to his responses of their own queries.

when you cannot beat a person , label him!
that is what these 'bastards' have doing since sayyid qutb, maududi etc etc up to morsi.

    this is not new.
    it is a game polished by the kuffur west and now joined by the kuffur east as well

    and if this game does not work, 'kill' them politically of even physically.
    too many examples abounds, across history.

tdm, if his idea of east economic caucus [eaec ] was successful 15 years back , would have been ripe for an 'organised accident' by the cia.
his idea didnt...the japanese chickend out!...so he survive.

saddam, ghadaffy were not too lucky.

they got their necks stretched! 


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Doc,

One should always be generous, l agree, but one must not idolise uncritically. 

A critical faculty is vital in a rational human being. It offers one a sense of realism and balance, and saves one from the silly excesses of adulation. 

........................................................................

On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, 03:54 Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah, <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

i agree with you  dato
if you read me well dato i don t idolise easily...

what you are reading ,  a couple of sultans and a dozen  or so tansris also read.

i am at the age when i dont apologise anymore.....
reverence, if you notice, is not my cup of tea.

their egos oftentimes also got bashed every now and then.

i used to get 'dirty and angry letters from them .

but to me truth is more important than reverence...
if not for the change in the govt, i could well be eating nasi kawah in sungai buluh........




..................................................

---

From: dato jg
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 4:10 PM
To: Nik Isahak Abdullah
Subject: Re: Who to vote for?

Doc,

You must acknowledge that many, many Muslims in this country, even leaders, idolise ZN, and swallow uncritically everything he says as their 'belief nutrition' . This is what l find unpalatable. Perhaps you too might agree. 

Nothing that another homo sapiens says can merit total acceptance and uncritical adulation. Nothing. Wars, genocides, bigotry, backwardness, and untold cruelties and bloodshed, are all created by such kinds of uncritical acceptance and lazy thinking.

Some have argued that the Peloponnesian wars (4th Century BC) had been earlier carefully examined and debated. Up to a point, yes. They were - but only by the Athenians, who were a highly civilised and intelligent community. (Socrates and Alcibiades were among the soldiers.) But their enemy, the Spartans were among the worst hooligans of the time. (They later formed the core of the army of Alexander the Great of Macedonia.) 

Since then, wars and bloodshed had always been created by unthinking mass belief and hysteria. Because thinking through war issues, one can always find solutions that lead to peace. This is something warmongers and bigots do not like to see. 

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On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, 21:02 Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah, <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

credit must be given when it is deserved, dato.

you are not generous with dr zakir naik .

there is a science in religion, known as 'science of  apolegetics', propounded by the christian missionaries many decades ago to brow beat the muslims

they already had beaten the muslims in africa and asia and dominated them  physically and financially,but intellectually they have to devise a science to brow beat them at the mental level as well....thus the science of apologetics....

until ahmad deedat arrived on the scene  and brow beat the best of their pastors and ministers.

now that we have dr zakir naik who has a background and capacity times 5 times more than  the late ahmad deedat, why do we socalled muslims want to apologise!!!!

i cannot understand your rationale.......
   

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 From: Dato  jg

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 10:21 PM
To: Nik Isahak Abdullah
Subject: Re: Who to vote for?

I have no patience with all forms of pretentions or bullying. 

.......................................................

you should study history, dato
the spanish inquisition etc and etc
the present state of affair 
who is bullying who ?

oftentimes with you dato, i wonder whether i am communicating  with a muslim or  with a non muslim.....😃😃😃😃. you dont seem to derive pleasure and comfort at all in being a muslim, i would have thought. everything about islam is negative.

you are missing the elephant in the room.
the muslims are being bashed left right centre from time immemorial!
more so today.
you mention you want the syariah...your ulama get droned...your country get decalred a pariah state.....the security council pass a resolution banning all forms of trade with you etc etc etc.
they get even cnn, bbc and aljazera  to incarcerate you  years before to lay the foundation for their actions etc  etc and etc..


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From: Dato jg
Sent: Wednesday, August 1, 2018 11:33 PM
To: Nik Isahak Abdullah
Subject: Re: Who to vote for?

Hello doc,

It is strange that you should ask me to read about the Spanish lnquisition. Perhaps you do not know that l had spent four years at an ancient university studying Economics and Philosophy (and that included European history, including the Spanish lnquisition, and the backwardness and cruelties imposed by religion). 

As an undergraduate, I had also spent a whole summer in Spain, exercising my Spanish language, and visiting museums where l saw the actual instruments of torture used by the Catholic Church on scholars who used logic to think, or ask simple questions on the "teachings" of the Church. They sickened and horrified me to an extent you can never imagine. I discovered at that young age that reason and religion simply cannot co-exist. 

To quote to the well-known Nobel laureate in Physics, Steven Weinberg:

"Good men will do good things, and bad men will do bad things. But to do really, really bad things, you need religion."

By 'religion', one must also include beliefs and ideologies such as Communism, which has no room for honest enquiry and respect for logic and evidence. 

..........................................................

On Thu, 2 Aug 2018, 22:56 Nik Isahak Wan Abdullah, <drnikisahak@hotmail.com> wrote:

hello dato,

it is obvious we are apples and oranges.
by religion i mean personal faith.
faith in a god that is concurerntly personal as well as universal.

in my scheme of things, if i am in your position i would be feeling really depressed.
i am going into that 6 foot by 2 foot hole in the ground and i am confident there is no posterity  at all for me!

no accountability. no heaven and no hell...
beginning to sound like john lennon's paradisal home  high up in the sky! 

what is keeping me going now at even a relative young age of 66 is that hope , minute as it can be, but still a  possibility that in my other life i will be in ' a mansion that rivers of honey and milk flow underneath and i would have to take my  private jet just to survey my musang king estate, etc and etc...." 😊😊😊

.....on the contrary if i dont do well in this transient earthly life i will  be ' a bouncing baseball oscillating from in the  oven of hell , up and down , up and down, a journey of which is equivalent to 50,000  earth's years'😎😎😎

that description is not  from dante's inferno mind you dato ... . i think it is ibnu qayyim's, correct me if i am wrong.,

it is figurative of course dato.
hell or heaven, whatever it may be....it is certainly figurative beyond our comprehension, but certainly heaven and hell is not a metaphor.

in your world it sounds pretty constrictive,definitely depressing  especially when we go beyond our 3 scores and ten!

tell me dato how can i change your position?
really, i am sympathetic to your predicament.

dr nik

................................................................................

You

You replied on 8/3/2018 6:54 AM.

Dear doc,

I can see that you are a good person, a caring and decent man. And l thank you for your caring attitude.

First of all, l am not depressed with life. My health is reasonable for my advanced age, and l am fortunate in my family life - with lots of cucus to play with. 

I am just as fortunate with my five sons. When l reached the age of 70 they told me to my face that they will not allow me to pay for anything l need: THEY will pay all my bills through the family company. They said l have worked all my life to support them, and now they will look after me. I was deeply touched.  So l have no health or financial worries.

I now come to your point - am l not afraid of death? The simple answer is no. I am not. I have not done anything bad to anyone. If anything, l may have done. a little good to a few people. And I give to charities. 

Am l not afraid to be placed 6 feet in the ground? No l am not. I would be dead. If God is just He would not punish the dead (to come "alive" again, but without a "body" ) with eternal torture by fire. Why? Why? What is the point? Surely He is not an evil sadist! Surely He is Omniscient, Loving, and Merciful. Surely He does not believe in management by terror. Rather His nature would be more management by love. 

So the idea of hell-fire is incongruent. 

Instead, l think He would approve of the intellectual honesty of those who used the brain He gave to think for themselves - clearly, independently, and deeply.

No doc, l am not afraid to die. I know that my time will come very soon. I have lived a life with decency and, hopefully, will die peacefully. And, most probably, that will be the end of an insignificant human being like me. 

Thank you. 

.................................................

i am not giving up on you dato...

just give me a call if by chance you happened to wake one day on the right side of the bed, and "presto!..you find you want to change".

abu hamid alghazali, once, had this to say about sea shells:

" those who find sea shells will find sea shells. the few who open them will find pearls! "

found scrawled on a wall in ryogin temple , kyoto..
" when you change, evrything else change "

when will you change dato?

dr nik